Wednesday, 30 March 2016



Timmy is a very close friend of mine. We discuss Islamic spread and issues very often. Timmy is an atheist and very informed person. He read the article of Ahmadi Writer and Activist Tahir Nasser published at titled as “Why the Quran Protects Against Radicalization: A Rebuttal to USA Today’s Nabeel Qureshi”. You can read the article by Tahir Nasser here. Mainly his argument was that all the peaceful but abrogated verses are in fact not abrogated, they still can be applied because Ahmadya community does not believe in abrogation. Timmy decided to confront Tahir Nasser on the topic of most later violent verse in Quran 9.29(Command of Fight with non-believersJews and Christians) and its current application. In that effort he almost torn apart Tahir Nasser who responded to timmy’s comments abruptly. This discussion is very informative and I am Just going to reproduce here as it is. Then you can decide who is right and who is wrong.

Timmy: Sorry Mr. Later verses in Quran are the ones which are the later commands on some subject previous verses on that subject are considered abrogated. Later verse in Quran with regard to Non-believers, Jews and Christians is Quran 9.29 which calls for fight to them until they submit. Moderate Muslims like you play as front runners for the terrorist by Playing deception and showing appeasement to the West as ordered by Quran 3.28, If Quran calls for peace where are those people of Islam who have following in Millions to condemn and protest against terrorists. Your opinion only support terrorist by deceiving people into believing That Islam is peaceful while its not. Alazhar university believes that Muslims will establish a caliphate as per the ahadith of Muhammad and ISIS is working for that. If you condemn ISIS you Condemn the Institution of Islam Al azhar. Alazhar is authrity on Islam while you are not without any kind of Following. So your Islam is a deception and distorted version of True Islam.


Tahir Nassar : I think you have misunderstood me. I certainly (and no member of the Ahmadiyya community does) do not believe in the theory of abrogation - that later parts of the Qur'an nullify earlier parts. The apparent contradiction is because certain verses are applicable only within certain contexts. That a muslim must take all verses of the Qur'an and read them together is explained by the Qur'an itself in the following verse:
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; THE WHOLE IS FROM OUR LORD.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. — (Qur'an 3:8)
The Qur'an itself denies the theory of abrogation several times:
Yet you are the people who slay your own brethren and turn out a section of your people from their homes, backing up one another against them with sin and transgression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, while their very expulsion was unlawful for you. DO YOU THEN, BELIEVE IN PART OF THE BOOK AND DISBELIEVE IN PART? There is, therefore, no reward for such among you as do this, except disgrace in the present life; and on the Day of Judgment they shall be driven to a most severe chastisement; and surely, Allah is not unmindful of what you do. (Qur'an 2:86)
Behold, you are those who love them, but they love you not. And you believe in ALL the Book. When they meet you, they say, ‘We believe;’ but when they are alone, they bite their finger-tips at you for rage. Say, ‘Perish in your rage. Surely, Allah knows well what is hidden in your breasts.’ (3:120)
So how can we understand the verse 9:29? The verse 9:29 commanding Muslims to fight non Muslims must be understood in the context of other verses on fighting such as:
And fight them until there is no persecution, and religion is freely professed for Allah. But if they desist, then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors. (2:194)
The context of its revelation was that the Byzantine empire (a Christian empire) was rumoured to be amassing a force on the Syrian border to attack the Muslims. Against this, the Muslims amassed a force and rode to the border of the Syrian empire to meet the army. This article explains this all well:
As for the relationship between Muslims and non Muslims who do not persecute others for their faith (as the Byzantine empire was rumoured to be doing and ultimately did to the Muslims) the Qur'an is clear that it should be one of peace:
Allah forbids you not, respecting those who have not fought against you on account of your religion, and who have not driven you forth from your homes, that you be kind to them and act equitably towards them; surely Allah loves those who are equitable. (60:9)


Timmy : Whatever verse We abrogate or cause to be forgotten-We bring better than it or its like.(Quran2.106) 
First of all how 9.29 cannot be used now when terrorist think that Muslims are being persecuted so They have a right to fight ....
Secondly your community has a distorted version of Quran which mainstream Muslims reject. They consider you Kafir. You cannot say that your distorted version of Quran is followed by all Muslims so you Must say this in all of your articles to make people understand the threat rather you dont mention this fact and end up deceiving people. 
lastly you still provide cover for the terrorists by lying and deceiving the people about islam there are thousands ahadith about Jihad and implementation of Islam. By telling people that Islam is peaceful which is not you are just providing a cover to mainstream terrorist so that the world dont start a war on islam and in the meanwhile terrorist keep on implementing Islam in the west. You are as equal terrorist as the ISIS.


Tahir Nasser: Qur'an 2:106 is in relation to the statements of previous revelations like the Torah or the Gospel. This is obvious from the context of verse 106, insofar preceding verses are talking about the jealousy of Jews and Christians as regards the Qur'anic revelation.
This also cannot be referring to the Qur'anic verses, because Allah has given a promise that the Qur'anic verses will never be forgotten but protected from all change (Qur'an 15:9-10). So Allah is not referring to the Quranic verses as being abrogated or forgotten, but the teachings of previous religions, some of which are preserved in the Qur'an, others of which, which were specific to the Age and Geography of previous civilisations and are now no longer applicable, have been replaced with better, universal teachings of the Qur'an. Read this:®ion=E1&CR=EN,E2
The rest of your points aren't worth replying to. Have a good day.


Timmy : Tafsir Jalalyn of verse 2.106 for your defective knowledge ...

When the disbelievers began to deride the matter of abrogation, saying that one day Muhammad enjoins his Companions to one thing and then the next day he forbids it, God revealed: And whatever verse (mā is the conditional particle), that has been revealed containing a judgement, We abrogate, either together with its recital or not [that is only its judgement, but its recital continues]; there is a variant reading, nunsikh, meaning ‘[Whatever verse] We command you or Gabriel to abrogate’, or postpone, so that We do not reveal the judgement contained in it, and We withhold its recital or retain it in the Preserved Tablet; a variant reading [of nunsi’hā] is nunsihā, from ‘to forget’: so ‘[Whatever verse We abrogate] or We make you forget, that is, We erase from your heart’; the response to the conditional sentence [begun with mā] is: We bring [in place] a better, one that is more beneficial for [Our] servants, either because it is easier [to implement] or contains much reward; or the like of it, in terms of religious obligation and reward; do you not know that God has power over all things?, including abrogating and substituting [verses]? (the interrogative here is meant as an affirmative).
Tafsir Ibn Abbas on 2.106 ...
Then Allah mentions what was abrogated of the Qur'an and that which was not abrogated, as a direct reference to the claim of the Quraysh who said to the Prophet: O Muhammad! Why do you command us to do something and then forbid it, saying: (Such of Our revelations as We abrogate) We do not erase a verse that was acted upon before and which is now not acted upon (or cause to be forgotten) or leave unabrogated so that it is acted upon, (We bring one better) We send Gabriel with that which more profitable and easier to act upon (or the like) in reward, benefit and action. (Knowest thou not) O Muhammad (that Allah is Able to do all things?) of the abrogated and unabrogated.
Another verse of Quran 16.101..
When We replace a message with another -- and God knows best what He reveals -- they say: "You have made it up;" yet most of them do not know.
Tafsir Ibn Abbas...
(And when We put a revelation) when We send Gabriel with an abrogating verse (in place of (another) revelation) in place of another abrogated verse, (and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth) and Allah knows the probity of that with which He commands His servants, (they say) the disbelievers of Mecca say: (Lo! thou art but inventing) from yourself, O Muhammad. (Most of them know not) that Allah commands His servants with that which is good for them.
all of the above tafsirs of the verses i quoted prove that you are playing a deception and lying to people. All of the islamic books are filled with the rules of interpretation of Quran but you are just helping terrorist by cooling down the victims ...You are equaly terrorists.
Dont think the everybody is gonna buy your lies......Not everybody


Tahir Nasser: Yes indeed, there are Muslims who believe in the theory of abrogation but there is no good evidence for it.

All of the Tafasir that you have listed do indeed speak of abrogation. You know why? Because the Qur'an was revealed over a 23 year period. Not all its rules and instructions were revealed at the same time. At times, situations arose requiring guidance on issues the Prophet had not yet received revelation regarding. In these regards, he would give the commandment found in the Old Testament, while awaiting the new teaching of the Qur'an. This is why the Meccans said to him: "why do you give one teaching at one point and then God gives another later". Until the Qur'an gave a teaching on a matter, he would follow the instructions of Judaism.
However, once a verse of the Holy Qur'an was revealed, there was no question of its abrogation, otherwise its integrity as the "final law from God" would be put in jeopardy. Some Muslims have misunderstood the above issue, and so have construed it to mean that parts of the Qur'an abrogated other parts, since they could not reconcile the two instructions, being deficient in understanding of Islam and the Qur'anic teachings. An example of such is given in the following authentic hadith. The Prophet of Islam said:
"Thus were ruined those people who have gone before you, for they interpreted certain parts of their scriptures in such a manner as to make them contradict other parts" (Musnad).
There is another hadith in one companion of the Prophet directly refutes abrogation theory, saying that it derives from misunderstanding the commandments of God. I will find it and post it for you.


Timmy : No problem you can try very hard to find something against abrogation but let me quote you some ahadith how Companions of prophet used to apply abrogation increase your defective knowledge...
1)Abu al. 'Ala' b. al-Shikhkhir said:
The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) abrogated some of his commands by others, just as the Qur'an abrogates some part with the other.(Sahih Muslim 344,In-book reference : Book 3, Hadith 99,USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 3, Hadith 675)
2) Narrated Nafi`:
Ibn `Umar recited: "They had a choice, either fast or feed a poor for every day.." and added, "This Verse is abrogated."(USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 33,Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4506)
3)Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The verse: "And say to the believing women that they should lower gaze was partly abrogated by the verse: "Such elderly women as are past the prospect of marriage." ( Sunan Abi Dawud 4111,
In-book reference : Book 34, Hadith 92,English translation : Book 33, Hadith 4099)
4) Narrated Marwan Al-Asghar:
A man from the companions of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) who I think, was Ibn `Umar said, "The Verse:-- "Whether you show what is in your minds or conceal it...." was abrogated by the Verse following it."(sahih Bukhari SC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 6, Book 60, Hadith 69,Arabic reference : Book 65, Hadith 4546)
5) Ibn 'Abbas said:
The Qur'anic verse: "If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere" was abrogated by the verse: "So judge between them by what Allah hath revealed."(Sunan Abi Dawud 3590,In-book reference : Book 25, Hadith 20,English translation : Book 24, Hadith 3583)
and many more i can present OK ...Now let me conclude you are the corruption of Islam and the worst form of Taqiya (Quran 3.28), you are just tools of terrorist who use people like you to spread their agenda among western countries....another thing ahmdis can be counted on finger tips, they are so small in numbers. True Islam is the one the ISIS and Alazhar are following and preaching. You are the media, the advertisement agency to portray soft image of true form of terrorism of islam for making it acceptable for the people of the west. You are soft version of terrorists in fact you all are the same.
Not everyone is buying what you are selling my friend........not everyone......


Tahir Nasser: 1. The opinions of companions of the Prophet do not trump the Qur'anic statements that abrogation is false. There are statements by companions of the Prophet in which they had misunderstood certain points. Moreover, many hadith, especially deriving from Ibn Abbas, often do not originate from him but utilise his name and stature for authority.
This something that you don't seem to understand: hadith cannot overrule the Qur'an. When the Qur'an has stated that "this is a perfect book" and "there is no doubt in it" and it speaks against previous scriptures and their abrogation, as well as the Prophet himself warning against abrogation, the reported sayings of this companion or that companion of the Prophet of Islam have no say in the matter. There is a hierarchy of evidence in Islam. Abrogation has been demonstrated to be a product of poor understanding of the applicability of the Qur'anic text.
2. The translation of "abrogation" in the above hadith is erroneous. The word "abrogation" has been misapplied in the above examples. Abrogation means to nullify and cancel out. This does not apply in any of the above hadith. Certainly, certain parts of the Qur'an limit the application and scope of other parts - that is entirely admitted and that is exactly what we are saying occurs with verses of the Qur'an relating to fighting; they only apply once the conditions of war, set out in other verses, come into force.


Timmy:  I placed my reliance on Quranic verses 2.106, 16.101 and there explanation by Highly Credible sources like Tafseer Jalalyn , Ibn Abbad Plus i quoted Highly Credible Ahadith of the companions of Your prophet as compared to their view....Your opinion cannot be relied upon...In fact you have no Comparison with them. Your point of view is nothing but negation of Islamic teachings.....

based On them i rule out your distorted, Misconceived understanding of Islam. This discussion I did only for the sake of the people to understand the deception employed by the people like you. That's all from me, now its for the people to decide who to trust. I am done with your ignorance and distortion. My time is too precious to be wasted on ignorant like you. Bbye


Tahir Nasser: Qur'anic verses must be understood in line with other Qur'anic verses (see below). This is in keeping with what the Qur'an states about itself. No tafsir, hadith or scholarly interpretation can trump what the Qur'an states about ITSELF:
He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; THE WHOLE IS FROM OUR LORD.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. — (3:8-9)
Kind Regards


It’s little bit long but clearly exposes the lies and distorted version of Islam presented by Ahmadya Writer Tahir Nasser.  I agree with Timmy that so called moderate Muslims are the soft form of terrorists because Radical scholar get their man power from these moderate Muslims by showing them the clear commands of Jihad and violence in Quran. First you start to believe in Quran then they indoctrinate you with extremist ideology of Islam which is excessively available in Islamic books, pick any, including Quran and Hadith. Secondly these moderate Muslims keep on deceiving the west by telling them that terrorism has no link with Islam i n an effort to make it an acceptable religion for the west. Stay aware and safe from deceptive moderate Muslims.


Asad Mahmud

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